The Joys and Challenges of Entrepreneurship

Alana Muller 0:10
Welcome to Enterprise.ing, a podcast from Enterprise Bank & Trust that's empowering business leaders one conversation at a time. We'll hear from different business leaders about how they found success in cultivating their professional networks and keeping them healthy and strong. I'm your host Alana Muller, an entrepreneurial executive leader whose primary focus is to connect, inspire and empower community. We at Enterprise Bank & Trust thank you for tuning in to another episode.

Alana Muller 0:41
Listeners, welcome back to Enterprise.ing podcast. Today, George Brooks is in the studio. He is a user experience designer by trade and an entrepreneur by accident. He spent the past decade, really years, growing and evolving Crema, a design and technology consultancy which started as an operation in the second bedroom of his home, and has now grown to a 50 plus person hybrid organization with team members spanning the country. He and his colleagues build teams that ideate, validate and execute on the future of the service business. George Brooks, welcome to Enterprise.ing podcast.

George Brooks 1:1
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Alana Muller 1:17
I'm delighted to have you. To get us started, tell us what is Crema and what inspired you to start the company?

George Brooks 1:23
What is Crema? Crema is, as you said, a design and technology consultancy. Which, what the heck does that mean? So, we have the pleasure of working with, really, now we're really focused in on enterprise service organizations. Everyone from IT, cybersecurity, data services, to engineering, architecture and construction services that are trying to deal with this, what we refer to as, the ‘inflection point of scale,’ when a company is going through this thing where they may be a 100-year-old company, but all of a sudden, they just had a reason to grow really fast. And everything starts to kind of break apart at the seams. And you know that SaaS software that they bought off the shelf is kind of like, yeah, it worked for us when we were, you know, 100 people. But now we're like 10,000 people, and it's not serving us real well. So, we get the chance to come in and do everything from consulting to ideating, and envisioning a better way to serve their customers and clients and their employees. And then we get to actually design solutions and build those solutions with those clients to help them be prepared for that inflection point of scale.

Alana Muller 2:20
How cool, and I love that expression: "inflection point." How do you find each other? So, how do your clients find you? Or how do you find them? What's that process like for you?

George Brooks 2:28
You know, we joke about the fact that we're in the business of people, we just happen to design and build apps, right? So, you know how it goes. I mean, the reality is, it's all about relationships. Good work begets good work. But I think we do a couple different things. One is we do produce a lot of content. We tell the world what we think about. We give away knowledge so that they can say, "Hey, when I'm looking for someone who is thinking about user experience, or when I'm looking for someone who is specialized in construction estimation tools," we're gonna have that piece of content ready and available for them.

George Brooks 2:57
But if I'm honest, most of the relationships come from, "Hey, you want to grab coffee?" And we get together and we talk about some of the pain points and common challenges we see across service organizations. And then say, "Hey, when you're ready, like, let's take this relationship deeper. Do you need an NDA? Let's talk about an NDA,” and then go on to the next step. And yeah, I mean, it's about being at the right place at the right time, talking to the right person who's ready to move forward. So yeah, lots of different ways. But, end of the day, it's relationships.

Alana Muller 3:23
Well, and you know you are so speaking my language. I love that, and I couldn't agree more. You know, the business will come and it's not, you know, I get it, it's not just, "If you build it, they will come." But, if you've built meaningful, trusting relationships over time, there's not a reason not to contact you, right? Not a reason not to invite Crema to come in. And even just from an ideation session perspective, even if that's it, what value you bring.

George Brooks 3:49
I love… I mean, honestly, those early sessions are still some of my favorites, when we're getting to sit down and say, "Hey, you maybe don't even know what you need yet. Or you don't even know what the challenge or the problem is. You can’t articulate it very well, but you're feeling it, you know, so it's under the skin." And so like, we just ask the right questions and pursue the through-lines to go, "Okay, great. We get it.” And maybe not today is not the time to uproot everything, and restart and restructure, and reorganize and rebuild and everything else. But you might not want to wait too long, because it's not going to get easier if you're going from, you know, a $100 million organization to a multi-billion dollar organization. It's work, it doesn't get easier as you grow.

Alana Muller 4:28
Well, and, talk a little bit more about your background with user experience and user design. A million years ago when I was at Sprint, when we launched the very first “wireless web.” And, you know, I thought everybody was using the wireless internet and it turned out nobody was using the wireless internet because they didn't know what it was. But, I'll never forget we had these brilliant, brilliant user experience design experts who told me not to design for them, that they would design for us because they understood the human need. To instead tell us, tell them, what challenge, what problem we are trying to solve for. So, talk about your experience with UX [user experience] and UI [user interface]. What does that mean to you? And how do you help your customers?

George Brooks 5:07
That's a great question. I think the big piece for us is we try to get as close to the user as physically possible. At the end of the day, we want to know, what is it that is actually going to serve them best? So, we ask lots of questions, we explore. But before we even put an interface together, we're exploring: what are the problems, what are the daily routines that are going to be affected by this tool, either being forced on you, which is a lot of times what's happening, we're building operational software, or being introduced to you and you're getting to adopt it.

George Brooks 5:37
So, first is: I'm very bullish about kind of this “Lean UX” kind of approach, where we say, "Hey, what's the minimum viable product, the MVP that we can design, put in front of stakeholders or potential users, and validate early and often. And if we can do that, then we don't spend six months, years, building the wrong tool. Instead, we said, "Oh, well, if this interface worked slightly different for you, how can we, you know..." So, we're always taking those feedback loops and ideating on that. Of course, using you know, human-centered approach principles and design, you know, really traditional design principles to create the most beautiful and usable experiences that we can possibly make. We believe that any person, whether it's a client, customer, prospect or employee, deserves a consumer-level experience.

George Brooks 6:22
And so, we're always thinking about, how do we make this something that they're going to be delighted to open? Because when was the last time you were delighted to open a piece of software? It doesn't happen very often. So, how do we get to that delighted standpoint? And it is right. Now, I would say, I don't know who your UX team was, it was working you were working with, it wasn't me. But, I would say, I wouldn't tell you to stop designing, I would say, "Let's design together." How do we come into a space where we start thinking of ourselves as a cross- functional team, where we all have some value and perspective to bring to the table? And then we're going to definitely build the best thing together, not in isolation, or in silos.

Alana Muller 6:40
I love that. I know, you're hired. That's it, we're good, we're good. Well, you know, as I'm sitting here listening to you, I know that over the years, you've spent time building businesses of your own and also helping others to do the same. Stepping even outside of Crema, but just in the world of entrepreneurship, which I know that you are so much a part of, what does it take to launch a startup today? And what advice do you have for budding entrepreneurs?

George Brooks 7:25
I think it depends on what kind of startup you're going to start. Because I would say there are two kinds of primary businesses that I think about. There are service organizations and there are product organizations… there's lots of subcategories to that. I'll be honest, I started a service organization because I had to. A lot of people build something because they have a vision, or you know, they see an opportunity, and they're gonna go chase it. And then other people are, you know, shoved off a cliff, and they have to figure out how to build a parachute or a plane on the way down. And mine was definitely the latter. So… I won't go into the full story, but my daughter was in the hospital for the... my oldest daughter, who's now 17, which blows my mind, was in the hospital for the first seven months of her life. So, we were living out of the hospital, out of the ICU, with my wife and I. And at the time — this is way before hybrid and remote work, so, I was never at work. And so I left my job with the intent to be a contract freelance designer, you know, in my early 20s, having no business running a business, and had to figure out how to survive.

George Brooks 7:51
So, for me, it was, what does it take? I think it took that grit of having the need to survive. I had to figure out how to provide income, although thank God, my wife was a nurse, which was awesome, because she knew that people were always going to get sick, there was plenty of work to come in there. But, I had to find work to figure out okay, what am I going to do so that I can stay close to my daughter and still find work?

George Brooks 8:38
Now, that's the service side. What's great about a service organization is you can make money tomorrow. Meaning if you can convince someone to pay you to do the thing they don't know how to do or don't want to do, they'll literally exchange money with you within a very reasonable short amount of time. Now, if you have a vision to say, "I think a piece of technology should exist in the world," or "I think a T-shirt company should exist in the world," or "I think that we should go build manufacturing for X, Y and Z,” the upfront cost and capital and planning that goes into that is a slightly different challenge, right? Because you need to be prepared to understand: Do I have product-market fit? Is there a customer base that I can go after here? Will I need, you know, an extended runway to be able to last long enough for where profit is a potential or selling off the company is a reality?

George Brooks 9:23
And so, those are two different approaches. Both of them are very viable companies. I will say a product company, if you get it right, scales. Service companies really grow and they're much harder to scale, which is why we love serving service companies, because growth is hard, because it's basically one billable hour per one revenue unit. And so we're always trying to figure out, how do we help those companies? But if you're thinking about, "Man, I got an app for that idea," be prepared for that early stage of figuring out how am I going to capitalize on this, how to build something small enough with that MVP model that you know, build, measure, test and then ultimately go, "Okay, no, I've got something here. Either I need to raise money or convince my great uncle to give me something or something, to take it and scale it and go crazy with it."

George Brooks 10:06
But, I think either way, you have to have grit. And I even think ignorance. I love ignorance. It's such a like... I was in my early 20s, I had no idea what to not do. And that was such a gift. Because I wasn't jaded yet. To be honest, I got jaded…

Alana Muller 10:22
It's bliss, right? It's bliss.

George Brooks 10:24
So, I think ignorance is great. Take that and use it to your advantage. What's the company you want to build? You don't have to build a company that somebody else built. Dan and I, when we finally joined up as a partnership, we said, "What if we built the company we'd want to work for?" You know, and that changed everything.

Alana Muller 10:39
Imagine that, right?

George Brooks 10:40
Right? I mean, but it's not very normal to think about that because it is scary. You're thinking, "Hey, my life savings is on the line or whatever." You have to really be thinking about, you know, "What if I built the place where people would want to show up and go to work every day?” Because what we're going to do is going to be hard, it's going to be a grind. And as Simon Sinek said, it's an infinite game. It's never done. I mean, even after you sell it, it's not technically done. I mean… so I think it is that resilience, for sure.

Alana Muller 11:05
I was recently with a group of, sort of, up-and-coming professionals and several of them, unbeknownst to the others, said, "You know, I'm secretly thinking of starting my own company because I want to work less and spend more time with my family and have more free time."

George Brooks 11:22
Oh, that's cute.

Alana Muller 11:23
It is so cute, right? I mean, my standard response, and I, again, I said this to multiple... I said, "That's interesting..." I said, "You know, I would ask you, do you already have an idea?" And they would share with me, I said, "Well, you know, the one big bit of advice I would share with you is that your new company will be like a child that never grows up." And I said, "You won't be spending less time, you'll likely be spending more time on your work." So, I totally hear what you're saying. And that ignorance piece is important. But then also, your point about grit and sticking with it. And, you know, continuing to iterate, so that you're working for the company you would want to work for is really genius. And I do think that is sort of the piece that never gets old. It's really, it's just so great.

George Brooks 12:08
Well, what was it? The new… the CEO, founder of Nvidia, which is… if anybody's been watching, is just exploding. And he recently was interviewed. And you know, young entrepreneurs are asking him, “What would you tell your, you know, the guy back in the coffee shop with the idea, what would you tell him?” He's like, "Don't do it. Don't do it." And they're like, "What? You own one of the, you know, biggest companies in the world now." He goes, "No, no, it was because if I thought, 'Oh, this is going to be hard,' or I already knew how hard it was, I wouldn't do it. But because I was ignorant to how hard it was going to be, I kept going." And so what he did is, he says, "I have to trick my brain every time we go to the next plateau, or try to get on the next rocket ship to the next level. I have to tell myself, 'This is going to be easy,' knowing full well it won't be easy.” But you have to convince yourself of that so that you just keep going, right? You see the next plateau, the next potential.

Alana Muller 12:52
Well, so what we're talking about entrepreneurs and up-and-comers and new technologies, I know that you are a fellow podcaster and that you are the co-host of "People of Product." I want you to tell our listeners about your show, what you focus on. And I have to just say this one little aside, is that everybody has to go look just at the artwork for your podcast, because I love the bobbleheads of you and your co-host, Dan Linhart. I need to get my own bobblehead. I'm gonna put in a request for one of those. That is just too cool. So anyway, for real, tell us about "People of Product" and what you talk about.

George Brooks 13:27
Yeah, "People of Product" was an experiment we started… Gosh, it's been, maybe it's been three or four years ago. Now, it was partly because we said, "Hey, where do we have a space to process how we're viewing our industry, how we're viewing our space?" And this was, for Dan and I, my business partner and I, to go, you know, "Dan doesn't want to be on camera. And so, what if we just hooked up some mics and started talking?" That's kind of really just the simplicity of how it started. What if we just had a conversation and explored our understanding of reality in the world and business and everything else?

George Brooks 13:57
And it turned into... We said, "Oh, this is fun." And then quite... not too long of a period of time, Dan and I ran out of things to talk about, because we were like, "Oh, we figured out what we know.” And so he said, "Well, what if we started inviting, you know, guests like this onto the conversation?" And it was just... it's such a fun place to be. We love thinking about product. When we say product, there's lots of different definitions for product, whether it's a physical product or an engineering product, or maybe you think a product is a coaching program or something like this.

George Brooks 14:22
There's lots of things that are now referred to as products. We think of products primarily in the software space, right? So, we're building software. And there's a thing called a product manager, which is a kind of a relatively new term in the last dozen years, and really got popularized by the big tech companies. But, us Midwesterners were trying to figure out what product managers do, and Crema really got good at product management. We loved it and we loved this idea of connecting the business to the technology needs, to the design potential.

George Brooks 14:54
And so we said, "What if we started bringing in other folks that are doing product or are experts in product in their field or in their industry?” Maybe not telling the founder story as much, although we do occasionally have a founder who's also a product leader, but instead saying, "Hey, tell me about the team that like, did the all-nighter to get it done. Tell me about the way that you think about cross-functional work. Tell me about the way that you think about prioritizing what needs to come next, versus what we're dealing with right now."

George Brooks 15:23
And these are all common issues across any organization from startup to enterprise. And I got to tell the one story. It’s the best, is, I was at Chick-fil-A picking up food for my family, right? And this guy walks up to me, and he goes, "Are you George Brooks? And I was like...

Alana Muller 15:41
Who wants to know?

George Brooks 15:42
…Yeah, I was like, "Yes." And then he goes, "Dude, my whole team listens to ‘People of Product.’” And it ended up being, I won't say the name of it, ended up being a very large organization here in Kansas City. And it was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, they've never reached out to us, it didn't lead to necessarily any work. But just to know that there are people listening, that, you know, we don't have you know, we're not Gary Vaynerchuk, or you know, Simon Sinek, we don't have these huge podcast listener numbers. But, the few people that were listening, it was impacting their work. And I thought that was awesome.

Alana Muller 16:12
You're a celebrity! I love that.

George Brooks 16:14
A little mini one…

Alana Muller 16:15
Thanks for being on my program.

George Brooks 16:16
In Chick-fil-A. I mean, I guess that's where we hang out.

Alana Muller 16:19
You know what, that totally works. Whether it's stage, screen or supermarkets, I think it doesn't matter, right?

George Brooks 16:25
That's right.

Alana Muller 16:25
That's great.

George Brooks 16:25
I'll take it.

Alana Muller 16:28
Well, what's something you're working on now that you're especially excited about?

George Brooks 16:32
I think as an organization, we're kind of trying to eat our own dog food in the sense that we're trying to think about if we want to grow, or if we want to push ourselves to that next level… we want to figure out how do we not be thinking about just again, the one billable hour for the one revenue of unit increase. It's worked really well for 15 years, we know how to do it, we love serving in that space. So, a couple of things that we're thinking about is productizing some of our services.

George Brooks 16:56
So, thinking about either how to make them either incredibly efficient so that we can increase the value, while we decrease the time it takes to achieve those. Or actually saying, "Hey, how might we teach other people how to do what we do?" So, we're exploring a couple of different versions of those, not fully fleshed out yet. So, I won't announce what they are. But I think you're going to be seeing that come from Crema soon as we start thinking about, "How do we serve people where they're at?" And what we're finding is, as organizations switched to technology during COVID, to be their savior and their rescuer, they got really good at thinking about the digital transformation being massively accelerated.

George Brooks 17:33
Okay, so now you have teams, you have developers, you have engineers, you have DevOps, you have all this stuff, now in-house, especially at the enterprise level. How can we help you to get more out of those people? So, a big piece that we're working on now is, instead of us coming in and saying, "Hey, we'll design and build your product.” We're coming in and saying, "Hey, how can we help you assess your teams, your structures, your process, your approach, so you can get more out of your people like we have at Crema?" We've often been asked after working with us for a period of time, "Hey, can we keep some relationship here? Because I want us to look like you in the future, the way that you work, the way that you treat each other, the way that you envision the future." And so we're kind of saying, "Well, what if we just took that and ran with that?" So I'm pumped.

Alana Muller 18:16
That’s neat. Well, okay, well, so, flip that on its head. I mean, it sounds like the most idealistic, that I know, you, like me, like every business owner, every entrepreneur out there, we all face challenges. So, are there some big obstacles that you've overcome? How are you able to do that? And how do you coach other business owners, leaders, entrepreneurs, how to face the challenges that come into play in their lives?

George Brooks 18:39
I mean, hey, everything I just told you that we're focused on doing right now is a byproduct of having the last two years be the hardest two years of our company's history. And that's just full transparency, right? Like, we went through both the shift in the economy, definitely affected us, the slowdown, the less people investing into innovation, because they had extra capital to do so, or free capital to do so. Instead, they're going, "Hey, no, I'm gonna slow my roll a little bit and figure out what we can get out of what we have." And so I think that yeah, that was a huge challenge for us. On top of the fact that, like I said, people turned to technology, they started hiring engineers, then you had a big tech layoff in the industry. So, what we found is that, hey, we're valuable, because it's hard for you to hire engineers. And we have them and we've trained them and they know how to work well.

George Brooks 19:27
Oh, wait a minute, all the tech companies just laid off tens of thousands of engineers, so the market just got liquidated with talent. And so, it was harder for us to sell engineering services. Okay, well, how do we adapt? We could go, "Oh, man, woe is us." Like the market changed. We're gonna you know, like, it's not going to be great. We did have to make some hard changes and ultimately came out of it going, "Okay, who are we today? What are we going to be tomorrow and how can we be better?" And I think that it's at that moment where I'm always telling people if you're not, if you look… The mantra that I have here at Crema, which people hate that I say it all the time, but I'm going to keep saying it, because that's how things stick, is “If we look the same, two years from now, as we do today, we're on our way to being irrelevant or obsolete.” Our industry moves too fast. Every industry moves too fast, right? And so if you aren't willing to evolve and adapt, when things aren't going the way you expected them to, you know, the "pivot, persevere or punt," like, okay, then you have to be willing to pivot to make changes to what you thought was true yesterday. And ultimately, change is hard, right? People don't like it, it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel comfortable. And so I think the big thing for me is to say, "Hey, try to imagine what you could be in the next two years, and then always be working towards that, even as you're managing the day to day for what's happening right now."

Alana Muller 20:47
I agree with you. And, you know, the thing that's interesting about that is I think that we can maintain our missions, our missions may never change. They're so foundational to who we are, they're the core of our very being. And yet, don't you find that the way that those missions manifest themselves changes over time, and it changes with the times, it changes based on the client that you're serving, what the client's needs are, what their challenges are. And I think what you're saying is, you know, you can hold true to your values, you can hold true to that central mission that propels you. But, the way that you operate, your business must change.

George Brooks 21:25
I mean, let's be honest, our mission statement hasn't changed in years, right? Or whatever purpose, vision, mission and that core statement. So for us, it's, we believe that design technology and culture can ultimately help individuals and organizations thrive. Not just organizations, because we don't want to just, it's not just for the purpose of profit, but also the individuals in those organizations or individuals that they serve, we can actually help them with design technology and culture, not just the services, but the culture piece as well. That hasn't changed. How it manifests itself looks different, our contract sizes are different, our service offerings are slightly different, they're still also very much the same, but they have a different flavor, right? And we have to adapt to that.

George Brooks 22:07
We now work with firms that I would have never thought of working with. I never thought about cybersecurity as a space that we would go into. But you do one, and then you do two, and all of a sudden you're like, "Hey, I guess we design and build cybersecurity software." Like that... you have to be willing to follow those potential passes, potential opportunities to where they lead, and not go, "Nope, I'm gonna bury my head in the sand. It worked before, it'll work this way forever."

Alana Muller 22:31
So, you've talked a lot about how you are coaching other companies, you're coaching leaders and entrepreneurs. How about for you? Do you have a mentor? Is there someone in your life who has had a particularly meaningful impact on you? Or your... either your personal or your career journey? And is there one best piece of advice that you've received from them?

George Brooks 22:50
Oh, man, I have a bunch of mentors. There's people that I go to for lots of different reasons. Dan and I have always surrounded ourselves with advisors of different types. And then we kind of advise each other, too. I mean, I love having a good business partner that I completely trust and yet we can challenge each other in good and healthy ways. So, I think, kind of the most, closest core, would be that we advise each other, my business partner and I. Which people don't talk about that. You should be willing to kind of view that as a paired mentorship in some way that we're both going to level each other up. He's like, the most intentional human being I've ever met. It's super annoying and awesome at the same time. And so I love that about him.

George Brooks 23:24
And then you take one sphere out from there, we have people that we go to to ask about, "Hey, how should we model our finances better? How should we think about our contracts better? Or how do we think about legal or compliance better?" You know, there's all these different ways that you can kind of sphere out from there. And then when you get out to the big business area, I'm always looking for those entrepreneurs that are just a few steps ahead of me. I've been doing this for 15 years, I haven't been doing it for 30. I am... we're you know, we're less than 100 people in the organization. What does it look like to be 500 people or 1,000 people? And then, as you have those conversations, to then just ask the question: "Hey, what should I be doing now, so that when I'm 500 people, I'll be prepared for that?"

George Brooks 24:02
And I think the best piece of advice that I've gotten was actually several years back now. And it's something that I brought back to Dan after having a coffee with a mentor advisor. And he said, "Hey, here's the deal. Two things, one, take lots of pictures, because you're gonna forget what happened. And instead, I turned on a camera and started a YouTube channel and a podcast. Two, is you... service organizations, specifically, small, boutique kind of service organizations are totally bottlenecked by the founder, because people fall in love with you. And then you happen to have a team behind you. You have to replace yourself. You have to flip that completely upside down and say no, they're hiring Crema and it happens to be owned by these guys named George and Dan. And ultimately, that was very hard and it took way longer than I thought it would.

George Brooks 24:51
Because I had to replace my design skills, people with designers that are better than me. I had to replace my strategy skills with strategists and consultants that were better than me. I had to place most of my sales skills, although I'm still, you know, as a founder that still happens, with a sales team and sales and marketing team. I had to replace a lot of the operating things with an operations team. Like, everything that I look... I'm always looking at myself and saying, "What am I doing today that... you know what, there's probably someone that can do that better than me, and I don't need to be doing it and if I were to be freed up, I can be thinking about what's next for Crema.” And so I think that one little piece of advice, and honestly, I don't even know if he'll ever remember giving me that piece of advice. But “replace yourself, you're the bottleneck of your own organization,” I've just been obsessed with figuring out how to remove that bottleneck so that Crema can grow without waiting on me to make those decisions for everything that comes through.

Alana Muller 25:40
Smart. Well, this has been super fun. You know, there's one question that I ask every guest. And of course, I have to ask you the same question. And it is this: if you could meet with one person for a cup of coffee, living, not living, fictional or non fictional? Who would it be and why?

George Brooks 25:53
I think... only because it's not to say that I'm a fan of this person, or I agree with everything this person says, but I'm fascinated by this person. It probably would be somebody like Elon Musk.

Alana Muller 26:05
I knew you were gonna say it.

George Brooks 26:08
Right? Because not everybody's on the same wavelength of who he is and what he does and how he does things. But, you cannot argue to be a person that can imagine we're going to take the human race to another planet. To be a person that says, "I'm going to start the first and most successful electric company." To be a person, that's like, "I'm going to drill holes under the ground," or "I'm going to sell flame throwers," and not fall apart... or maybe he has fallen apart and you just...

Alana Muller 26:34
I know, I'm not sure about that, George. But he has been successful, right?

George Brooks 26:40
Like I said, I don't agree with everything he does, but I would love to sit down and say, like, "Hey, you know what, for those that aren't you… Right? What might reality look look like for you know, these small up-and-coming businesses?" I'd probably walk away going, "That was weird," but it'd be interesting.

Alana Muller 26:47
Well, George Brooks, I have loved having you on Enterprise.ing podcast. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and about Crema?

George Brooks 27:02
I mean, the easiest way is Crema.us. That’s C-R-E-M-A.us, or check us out on YouTube at Crema, or our podcast at PeopleofProduct.us.

Alana Muller 27:12
George Brooks, thank you so much.

George Brooks 27:13
Such a pleasure, thanks.

Alana Muller 27:14
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Alana Muller 27:40
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